“Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them” (Rom. 16:17).
It’s not politic to do so, but I direct my concerns here toward a particular man named Jeff Walling who I believe is not a good representative for the church of Christ. I was provoked to write down my concerns, for the sake of others, after he spoke at my son and daughter’s college in a morning chapel
service, where attendance is required. It was what he said in the chapel that provoked me to write.
In Mr. Walling’s chapel visit (according to my children), he was well-received by the other students, many of whom are not Christians and do not have a church of Christ background. In that address, Mr. Walling related how as a young man he had a very narrow view of which was the right church. But now he has grown. He implied that the church of Christ of his early years remains narrow-minded today. In that address he said something along the line that it isn’t about how much you know: faith is what matters (this was his message). This is code language against the church that teaches five steps toward salvation and believes that musical instruments are a matter of fellowship. Walling’s “us and them” language was to contrast his openness and acceptance of others against the churches he grew up in. This is the Mr. Walling who accepts the Christian Church and treats their use of instruments as a non-issue of fellowship. He is not a good representative of the Church and the truth.
At one time, chapel was like worship where daily devotion to God was encouraged. Where the Bible was taught and the things that were said were the Gospel truth. The worship was not vain, but was Biblical. But now things are different. Mr. Walling leads the chapel and says things that are not Gospel truth.
Some people build the church and some people tear it down. Anything that waters down who and what is acceptable to God might be building something, but it’s not the church of Christ. I am deeply concerned over those who make emotional appeals, not doctrinal appeals, to the young and inexperienced at Christian Univesities. Charismatic story tellers don’t save souls.
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“For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.” (Rom. 16:18)
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Mr. Walling sees no problem with worshiping with instruments. He fellowships with denominations. You can read the Christian Chronicle article where Jeff Walling trades Bibles with the Christian Church preacher and encourages fellowship with them because no one is perfect. That’s a red herring. The discussion between truth and spirit worship and being perfect are two different issues as any Bible student knows. But Walling uses such fallacious tactics to fool people. Jeff Walling and others like him pose a danger to our sons and daughters.
Faithful Christians fight the good fight of faith. They build the church upon the foundation of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Paul said, “each man must be careful how he builds on it” (1 Cor. 3:10). Thus they diligently teach and preach the principles laid out in the Scriptures (1 Tim. 4:13,16). They carefully and lovingly speak the truth so that hearts are convicted to repent and turn to God (Eph. 4:15).
Parents need to prepare their children with the Bible before they send them to Christians Universities because there is not much hope that the whole counsel of God will be taught, in or out of chapel. The Mr. Walling types are often welcomed and parents need to know who will be indoctrinating their children.
Parents have a lot of responsibility here. I am not opposed to sending my kids to these schools. There are many positives if the young people go equipped in the faith. Regardless of the theological slant of the school, it’s important that our children be grounded in the Truth before they leave for college. The responsibility is not all on the colleges. Teach them about the church that Jesus built and purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28).
Everything about the Christian college is not bad. I don’t mean to indict everyone in the administration or faculty. My kids are getting a good education at the Christian University. There are a lot of positives that my children report. But know what your children are heading into and equip them with the truth before they leave home.
It is the undercurrent of religious liberalism from speakers like Jeff Walling that threatens to turn our young people away from the church of Christ. This is my concern as a parent of children in Christian College.
Finally, take a look at the comments and see how people fight for what they feel is important. Would that they would be as passionate about the Truth they can read in the Scriptures as they are about their opinions on the acceptability of instruments.
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HERE’S A 2006 STORY IN THE WASHINGTON TIMES NEWSPAPER THAT TELLS WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT JEFF WALLING.
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Mark Henderson and Quail Springs
Sin of commission and omission
Turn the other cheek
Categories: Jeff Walling, Oklahoma Christian University
A Conquering Faith 
For someone who was’t present at this chapel, or even at this school, you sure seem to know alot about it. And no, your children’s opinions, no matter how much you love them, does not count as witness. I am a student at OC, and was there to witness Jeff speak. While I’m not the biggest fan of Jeff as speaker, and I don’t agree with all of his convictions, I feel compelled to correct your asumptions. You have grossly misinterpreted his message. The real message was not about bashing our elders, but about growing up and learning to know G-d for yourself. I suggest before you write an entire entry about something you were neither present at nor have first hand knowlege of that you do you research.
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anonymous said…In response to the previous comment-I was in chapel that morning as well and what was written about Jeff is in fact accurate. Jeff made comments about how it is not what we score on the knowledge of the bible or what we believe but where our hearts are. If you listened carefully you would have seen that Jeff was very smoothly indoctrinating the students of OC with his liberal beliefs. If you so please, you can look up Jeff Walling on the internet and read all about how he openly accepts other denominations and is willing to ‘unify’ the congregation he preaches at, with the other denomination. You also should do some research before you criticize an appropriate article on the liberal opinions( not truth) that are being instilled in the youth of America. If everyone believed as Jeff, we would have no future in the church.
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From the Christian Chronicle….“Stone handed Walling his own Bible and told him: “The great thing about these Bibles is that they are exactly the same. They are the same translation. They are God’s word.”In an emotional display of love and acceptance, several prominent leaders of a cappella Churches of Christ and instrumental Christian Churches joined Walling and Stone in exchanging personal Bibles. Walling challenged the 6,000 people who packed the Kentucky International Convention Center that night to go home and do the same. “Are you willing to go home and shape the future of our brotherhood for our children by reaching out because of grace to say, ‘I love you in the name of Jesus Christ, brother?’” Walling asked the crowd. “And if somebody says, ‘Well, he’s a brother in error,’ you tell him, ‘Do we have any other kind?’“We are all in error,” Walling added. “That’s why we come every Sunday to say, ‘God, forgive us.’”Almost everyone in the audience — which convention organizers said included as many as 1,000 members of a cappella congregations — stood and accepted the challenge.”“Do we have any other kind”? Are you kidding! Most certainly we do. Of course there is no one who is perfect, but there are lots of Christians who are not living in error. Mr. Walling sets up the arguments and defines the terms. It is on doctrinal grounds that we in the church are opposed to the use of instruments. The church isn’t about disfellowshiping imperfect people. But people like Mr. Walling who are trying to turn the Lord’s Church into a denomination, need to be marked and avoided. If Walling believed that instruments were sinful, then he would call for people to repent of it. His reasoning is convoluted to equate a christian’s imperfection with the obstinate use of instruments. Instruments have divided the church. Caring and loving people would never justify their use.
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Yeah, OC is no longer one of the reliable Christian Universities. When I was there in the 90’s it was much more solid. It wasn’t too long ago when one of the Bible professors (who is still there) asked a female student to lead a prayer in class.
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I guess I’m a bit confused. If we are going to toe the line and ONLY do things in Bible ways, then why have big, beautiful church buildings or sanctuaries? 1st century church met in homes, not temples. They did not have AC or heat either, so is including these modern additions “adding” to scripture? Just trying to follow your logic. Do you have electric light in your church building, or are you doing it the Bible way and have oil-burning lamps? God did not sanction electricity in the Bible, as far as I know. I think you can take anything to an extreme, and be such an alarmist that you miss the heart of the matter.
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I’ve been to a non-instrumental Church of Christ. Heard beautiful singing. But, before each song the worship leader blew a pitch pipe. That really confused me. Here I was in a non-instrumental church, and the first thing they did was play an instrument; not a human voice, but an artificial, man-made musical instrument. Are we making so big deal over pitch pipes and pianos, that we are forgetting that people are going to hell all around us?
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Dear Anonymous,Yes, in fact, you are confused a little. To have building, song-books, or pitch pipes do not circumvent any command. There is no command in the Bible for churches to meet in homes. The examples in the Bible show otherwise. And all of these things that you confuse with adding to the Word are called “expedients”. Because God said to sing and He said to assemble, and because He did not give the specifics, then song books and buildings with electricity are a means of expediting God’s commands. All of this will be lost on the person, I suppose, who loves instruments. To such a person, that God said to sing, a specific command and a specific type of music, does not exclude the use of instruments. You cannot argue that instruments are necessary to fulfill the command to sing. Instruments are an additional form of music. Be honest. You have no qualms against using buildings or electricity. Neither do we for the reason I mentioned above. And there is no argument between us concerning the necessity of singing. If you agreed to sing only, we would be in unity. But your words here imply that you see no problem with the use of instruments. Thus you approve of something that you have no Biblical command for. The instrument is divisive and has been so since man added the practice. You cannot approve of the use of instruments without falling back on Old Testament worship or by misusing the symbolism in the Revelation letter. But I have met many people who hold your opinion and when all is said and done, instruments are always accepted because they want them. Thanks for commenting.Dan
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Dan, I think you’re hiding behind semantics here. “Expedients”, if I understand you correctly, are things that enhance or enable worship but are not specified in the Bible. I would submit that instruments are exactly that — they can and do enhance/enable worship. Are they absolutely necessary? Absolutely not! We surely agree on that. But then again, neither are songbooks or AC/heat. Whether a church uses songbooks, PowerPoint, or no promts at all is optional, as long as genuine worship is enhanced. Instrumental churches sing just as non-instrumental churches do. So, both churches are fulfilling God’s command to sing. Personally, I can have instruments or do without them. Worship flows out of the heart, instruments or not, and there is indeed a joyful noise in the heart whether the singing is a capella or accompanied by a full band. At least we do see God’s people using the expedients of instruments to worship in the Bible. There is clear biblical precedence for them (albeit not in Acts), in contrast to so many other expedients that man has taken the liberty to include in “church”. We have no biblical command for many of the things found in modern churches, expedient or not. But we include them anyway because we believe they enhance our worship of God. I think that’s a very good thing.
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Since I know your name, I’ll give you mine: Richard. I’m a dyed-in-the-wool conservative, baptismal regeneration-believing, truth upholding Christian (at least I try to be, but not always very effective). It’s not right to be anonymous with you.
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By the way, a pitch pipe IS an instrument. You blow into it, and a musical sound comes out. If you define that as an “expedient”, then so is a clarinet or trumpet. That’s just being consistent with your logic and definitions.
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Hi Richard,What we both have to concern ourselves with is the matter of adding to God’s Word. Because God said to sing “spiritual songs”, He intended us to come up with some songs for the church. That is a necessary thing to expedite God’s command. There is no concern that the Word of God has been added to. But to add instruments NOT a means to expedite the command to sing. Singing was done very well for centuries, without the aid of an instrument. Instruments were added to the worship creating dissension. So no, this is not word games. There is a clear distinction between something that expedites the command and adding to the command. And Richard, if you don’t know the difference, then you will not recognize when someone is adding and taking away from God’s Word. You wrote that you understand me to be saying that expedients are: “things that enhance or enable worship but are not specified in the Bible.” According to what I said, “enhance”, no; “enable”, yes. God said to communicate the Gospel to the world. He did not say that it had to be on papyrus or that it had to be face to face verbal. The expedients of radio or internet, for example, do not enhance the preaching. They are the means, though unspecified by God, to accomplish the command to preach. They do not add a new message. They do not add anything. But the instruments that you defend are an addition, an unnecessary and divisive addition. And concerning the pitch pipe, only if the song leader was zipping it back and forth on his lips, carefully playing each note along with the song, would he be adding music. The way that the pitch pipe is used is as a tool to find the sound of the first note. That is not an addition to the music which God commanded. Thank you.Dan
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Dan, Thank you for your help in understanding this matter. I think we are both on the same page; both seeking truth and genuine worship of Jesus Christ. I totally agree with you that music has been a far too divisive issue over the years. Jesus prayed for unity of His children, never division. I think denominationalism is one of the worst problems with His church. Ought not to be that way.I’ve been in C of C services, and loved the singing. I’ve been in other churches where instruments were employed under the voices. I like both services. Singing is usually great in an a capella setting. I’ve also noticed that instruments almost always enhance the spiritual energy of worship — sometimes bringing people to tears as they are transported closer to the throne. For sure, worship must be in Spirit and Truth. We both agree about Truth — never compromise, and always preach it regardless of cultural or religious norms. In terms of Spirit, we both desire a truly Spirit-filled worship that flows from our people to God. That is what God wants. I guess I’m at the point that if we can employ PPoint slides, stage lighting, state-of-the-art sound engineering, and even instruments as vehicles to bring people closer to God, then I see all of these as being expedients — things that aid us in better fulfilling the command for Spirit-fill and Spirit-led worship, and not “adding” to scripture. I’ll keep pondering your ideas. We dare not add or take away from God’s inerrant Word. We do know that God has approved instruments as aids to worship in the past, and that even angels sound trumpets (!). So, sounds like instruments are not banned in heaven. We also know that God does not change (Heb. 13:8). Would He now reject instruments in worship as sinful, and refuse to receive the genuine, heart-felt praise of His people just because a piano was providing some harmony to their voices? I’m not God, so I can’t answer that question with certainty. All I can do is worship and lift up praise to the best of my ability. R
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Dear Richard,Would having an altar of incense in the church be an enhancement or an addition? How about a Pascal Lamb? If we included a roasted lamb with the things God commanded, the unleavened fruit of the vine and bread, would that be an enhancement or an addition? How about ladies dancing in blue and pink chiffon? Would that be an addition or an enhancement? There is clearly a line which we are not to cross. God said to sing. Song books aid us in fulfilling the command to sing. Instruments do not. Instruments are an addition of an entirely new kind of music. And the church knew this and avoided them until the Catholics first introduced them hundreds of years after Christ. I am of a different belief than you are, Richard. Noise, such as that which comes from the vibrating instrument, does not teach and I cannot say “Amen” to it. Noise, such as that which comes from the instrument, bypasses the thinking and reasoning part of the brain – something the Word does not do – and speaks only to the animal. It is the flesh that is satisfied, not the spirit, when we add to or “enhance” the truth and spirit worship God commanded. Question: Should the church sing? The unequivocal answer is yes. Question: Should the church play instruments? The presumptuous answer is yes.Because instruments instruments are not commanded and because instruments have been introduced to churches, knowing that the church would split, they are wrong if for no other reason than for conscience sake. Richard, to worship in unity with me, would you give up the instrument?
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Dan,Not trying to put words in your mouth, but just trying to understand where you're coming from. To say that music speaks only to the “animal” in us, I think, is not really true. Music has the ability to reach into the soul & spirit and lift us up like few other things can do. I've not seen animals listening to music, but humans are often compelled to do so. If music did not have such a powerful and influential effect on our spiritual side, why would Satan try so hard to twist it and pollute it (as he has done so much of modern “music”). I think it's much too simplistic to say all music is humanly and of the flesh, while only truth is properly spiritual and cerebral. The 2 go together so well (just as Spirit and Truth do). Without our emotional and spiritual side, we're little more than biological computers — more machine than human. In churches I've attended the music was always of a sacred nature. Even during quiet, meditative times, there was soft music of hymns played — gentle reminders of God's greatness and Jesus' sacrifice for us. This music can communicate the message of Christianity and lead worship when not a word is spoken. It's highly effective at doing this, as it reaches directly into the heart. It evokes memories. It moves us. It's so much more than mere animal passion or fleshly satisfaction. It's transcendent and spiritual. God created us to be moved spiritually by a Beethoven symphony or a guitar solo. There must be a divine purpose for it. If so, why not use this wonderful God-given gift to worship Him? I can think of no greater application for music than praising God with it — in church or out of church. There will be music in heaven. In fact, if you read Rev. 14 (no matter what your interpretation of Rev. may be), you find that music ACCOMPANIES singing before the throne of God. It's right there in the New Testament. Worship there will not just be a capella, as some say it must always be here.So, we can disagree about whether or not to couple music with worship in our churches, but one day we'll all be singing and worshiping God with song and music in heaven. In terms of dividing, do you think that, in reality, it's the C of C that has made this non-issue a major, divisive issue that has driven needless wedges between otherwise united, like-minded believers? Clearly, there was instrumental worship in the OT. Equally clearly, there will be instrumental worship in heaven. Don't you think that in light of this very direct Biblical evidence that the majority of NT authors simply didn't specifically mention it was OK to pluck a harp in church because, maybe, this was so obvious that it didn't need confirmation?Just thinking out-loud…..r
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Something else too… Worship is not something to be done for 1 hour on Sunday morning. It’s supposed to be an active, 24/7 endeavor. You can worship driving down the road listening to Christian radio. I’ve been to Christian concerts (with loud music), and experienced greater, more spiritual worship than I’ve seen in most church services. Point is: if true Christian worship must be a capella, then does that mandate that we do away with Christian radio or CD’s? If Christian music is a sin in corporate worship, then it must also be a sin for individual worship as well, right? Whether you worship in a pew, an auditorium seat, or behind the wheel, worship is worship. If music is evil in one place, it must then be evil for all, correct? Should a Christian be allowed to play Christian hymns on a piano and sing at home? Aren’t these logical extensions of where your teaching leads us?
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Dear Richard,You sir, failed to answer my questions to you. In order to enhance the worship, as you claim that instruments do, would you also allow for incense, candles, beautiful chiffon dancers, pascal lambs, mood lamps, to be coupled with the soft strum on the harp? If not, why not? These things too are argued for by some for the same reasons that you justify the instrument. I noticed that you did not bother to answer this question. See, there is a line which we may not cross: the line between what is expedient and what is an addition. A song book is a clear expedient, but an instrument is not.I have another question for you: Do you agree with Peter who said that people are saved when they repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38)? Meaning that the non-repent and unbaptized are not saved? My primary concern at the college is that a liberal is invited to speak to our children, the parents unaware. It is a stealthy act by the school administration which undermines the spiritual teaching the students received at home and in their home congregations. All of this while the school claimed to be a safe, spiritual, place for Christian education. And Mr. Walling is not only accepting of instruments. These are opening the door to fellowship with denominations. So where do you stand? Though you do not care if worship be modified to soothe the flesh, will you take your stand on the teaching found in Acts 2:38; 22:16; Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:26,27; Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21 and many other places THAT baptism is the point at which a person first enjoys the soul cleansing benefit of Jesus’ sacrfice? And turning to your last comments, You say that the music you have heard is of a “sacred nature”. Defined so by you? You see this is the kind of subjective and presumptuous speech that satisfies someone who really, really likes instruments. You say the nature is “sacred”; I say it is fleshly. Now how I depicted it as fleshly versus vocal music being spiritual is based on objective evidence. A song sung from the heart, if spiritual, speaks to the mind and to the spirit of the hearer (just as Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians 14:14ff. But notes played on an instrument “say” whatever you want them to say. If you want them to “say” spiritual things, so be it. But to another person they might be saying something like, “I like music, it makes me feel good, and vocal singing music is so boring.” It’s all very subjective. An instrument “says” as much, or less, to the church as does someone who is speaking a foreign tongue when there is no interpretation (I say “less” because at least the foreign tongue really is objectively saying something). You said that the instruments have “the ability to reach into the soul and spirit and lift up….” Richard, how do you know these things. Richard, listen to yourself: “If music did not have such a powerful and influential effect on our spiritual side, why would Satan try so hard to twist it and pollute it (as he has done so much of modern “music”).” You are defending the necessity of instruments now! Instruments are so powerful to uplift the spirit that Satan has coopted the instruments to degrade us! Have you thought that maybe Satan is using the instruments to coopt and degrade the worship of God? I too have seen the instrument in use and I have seen people get so into the music that the real message didn’t matter. You wrote: “there was soft music of hymns played — gentle reminders of God’s greatness and Jesus’ sacrifice for us.”Sir, there is no way that you can prove it. What you write in defense of instrumental music is subjective sophistry. You have pulled out all of the stops to defend the use of the instrument in the worship of God. Your misuse of the Revelation 14 passage is a spectacular example of this. Surely you must see the symbolism in the use of the terms? Or do you also believe that it is only men who will be in heaven: “these are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women.”? You call the “like harps” in Revelation 14 to be “direct biblical evidence.” You reveal too much about yourself. If you think that constitutes evidence for instruments being played in heaven, then I fear that the full delusion has overtaken you. Another instance of what I consider sophistry is your turning the argument on the church, charging it with divisiveness, because the church rejected the calls to bring in instruemts. You mean to tell me that you know so little about church history as to not know that the church did not use instruments? It was the lovers of the instrument who brought them in and split the churches. So no, the blame will not be put on the church. Enough of this. We will have to disagree and stop the debate. You have not convinced me of anything but that you love the instruments. You are an easy target for those self-proclaimed change agents.To answer your last post, yes, worship in spirit and truth guides worship on Monday, not just Sunday. Thank you.Dan
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Dear Richard,My approach to Scripture is simple. I don’t add to it. Your approach is simple, add to it unless it is specifically forbidden. It is impossible for us to agree. I reject the use of instruments because God has said what He wishes to hear. You must approve of such things like the dancers, pascal lambs, and instruments on the basis of your feelings.You should read Revelation 14 again and study what a simile is. If something is “like” a harp, it is not a harp. OK. Enough of the debate. Let’s move on.
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Very interesting……
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i am a young minister and to be honest our two churches which “aren’t denominations,” yea right, are killing the “church.” Stop bickering because you can’t admit you don’t KNOW what is right completely. The Bible is truth, which leaves a lot of room on this issue, but yet we choose to argue about it. When is the last time you lead someone to know Jesus as savior? if it was right before you started bickering on here, great. But if your a churchie who doesn’t actually do anything but sing and argue then PLEASE do the world a favor and start doing CHRISTIANITY instead of talking about it. Thanks….God bless you guys.
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Dear Anonymous,Do you think it is fair to challenge my true, heartfelt concern to worship God in spirit and truth? Do you not have anything you are willing to “bicker” over, or is everything for you negotiable on the altar of unity at any cost? John wrote, “and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.” 1 John 3:22. What if you are wrong by giving approval to unifying with churches that split the church over a hundred years ago by introducing their opinion in the form of a piano? I will say it again. I am concerned with doing what is pleasing to God, just as John wrote. And I know that if singing spiritual songs is pleasing to Him, but neither one of us can say that God is pleased with the guitar – not any more than we could say He would be pleased the church observing the Old Testament Passover or circumcision or some other obsolete thing. No, I’m not wishing to “bicker”. But thanks for adding your two cents.
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Jeff Walling is seeking Christ and it is embarrassing the discussion you even bring up. Do you love the heritage of the Church of Christ over the mission of Christ? That is not a trick question. I along with countless others within our tradition are exhausted of being known for what secondary issues we are against and NOT who we are for – which is Jesus Christ. Satan is proud of this entire discussion. Please don’t waste time responding with your legalistic interpretation of scripture because I will not be coming back. God bless you and your children.
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Dear Anonymous that said “Jeff Walling is seeking Christ…” All I know is that while you assign to him the best spirit, if you listen to him he sounds a lot like you. How are you different from what you rebuke me for? Yes, making Satan proud is the spirit of acceptance that some seem to have. It was not me that chose to divide the church. It was the lovers of the musical instrument. Jesus wants unity and I only want unity. The musical instrument has been a divisive tool of Satan and too many people fall right into the trick. And I see the church of Christ as being inseparable from the mission of Christ. Jesus came to build His church. The church of Christ can’t allow opinions and traditions to be introduced.
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To the author of this webpage I have this to say. You sir, are still on vegetables. Jeff Walling has the maturity to eat the meat. I believe that Jeff Walling was correct to imply that legalistic modern day Pharisees such as yourself have not grown in maturity to see that we are not saved because of what WE do, but because of what HE did. You have been freed, and are now free from laws and regulations, except you can’t see it. You folks are still imposing rules and regulations on yourself and on others. Your salvation is not based on what you do in worship on in the Church. It is not based on your behavior at all unless you are hard heartedly disobeying the law of love and obedience to direct commands given by the Lord. Yet,you go further by deciding that if God says to sing from the heart that this means ONLY singing with our lips is acceptable to Him? What arrogance, and pride that you feel Christ’s sacrifice on the cross comes with so many extra rules that He never intended. One can praise and worship Him in song in many ways, and as long as the heart is righteous, that person is not sinning. You, however, in writing mean spirited, discouraging, and evil words about Jeff Walling are the one in error. I have heard Jeff Walling speak many times and he is not the person you are describing. You it seems have not heard him speak personally, so I would watch your slandering about a righteous God fearing man who does wonders with the Christian growth of many people. You have been left in the dust with all your legalism, and phariseeism. My advice to you is drop your “religion” and get a “relationship” with Jesus Christ and then you will realize that your hateful remarks about Walling are sinful and unloving, and our salvation is not revoked for silly things like clapping hands, raising hands, dancing, and musical instuments. People are dying and going to hell and all you care about is man made rules that are distorted from the real thing. The traditions of the Church of Christ are not as important as loving God and loving others especially when they dont deserve it.
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Dear Anonymous,
Perhaps you don’t know me or know Mr. Walling. If you have ever heard him or read him then you don’t know the way he taunts and ridicules the faithful churches and their leaders whose only sin is having a sincere desire to do God’s will. I am not trying to be “sinful and unloving” to Mr. Walling. It was he that came to the school and chided the churches of Christ, offended my son, and implied that even the unbaptized students were just fine in their relationship with God. I have not seen Mr. Walling in person, but I have seen his video lessons on the internet and he is too “touchy feely” for me.
Mr. Walling spoke to my son at the Christian University and by his comments he clearly implied that the churches of Christ have not grown and matured to understand who is really saved. But Mr. Walling has a more spiritual understanding.
You seem to know a lot about what our salvation is based on. We like you understand that our salvation is through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ and that our works are as filthy rags. I know of no one in the church of Christ who thinks his or her works are sufficient to justify. So you are barking up the wrong tree.
But you are wrong to imply that our salvation is not dependent on what we do. Just as a man’s separation is based on his sin against God, our salvation is dependent upon how we respond and repent upon hearing the Gospel.
You might admit that Jesus was speaking the truth that “unless you repent you shall likewise perish” (Lk.13:3).
Jesus said “not everyone that says to me ‘lord, lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my father who is in heaven” (Mt. 7:28; cf 29,30). Jesus goes on to say in the following verses that the wise man is the one that hears and DOES what Jesus said to do in His sermon. So I would challenge your remark that our salvation is not based on what we do. Our salvation is clearly based on how we respond to His amazing grace.
Jesus said, “God is spirit and those that worship MUST worship Him in spirit and truth.” These words rule out making up worship according to our own likes. I won’t impose any regulations on the church. But neither should Mr. Walling or anyone else. But when that church door opens and someone marches through the door with their piano, organ, and drums, they impose their regulation on the entire church don’t they? And then the people have only the choice to stay and be imposed upon or to leave. That doesn’t sound very unifying and loving to me.
You suggest that I need to “drop my religion”? You think I should drop the “pure and undefiled religion which keeps itself unstained from the present world” (Jas 1:26)? Nah, I don’t think so. The “I want a relationship, not a religion” sentiment is a cliche’ that is not really reflective of the Bible. I too want a relationship with my heavenly father and my elder brother, Jesus Christ. But I know that it comes through obeying my God. Jesus said, “if you love me, you will obey Me”, (John 14:15; 15:14).
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I cannot believe how far these posts have gone over such a basic clear issue. A pitch pipe is blown before any worship begins, so that the song leader can start the song in tune. Otherwise, there would be many songs too high or too low for many people to sing. A clarinet is used selfishly during worship in order to enhance people’s senses and make the worship more enjoyable. It is never classified as ‘worship’. The scriptures tell us to sing, to pray, to preach God’s word in Truth, to give, to take the Lord’s Supper, and to fellowship with one another. He is very specific in how we are to worship, and the ways we are to carry out his commands. For example, He tells us to sing to one another with songs, hymns, and spirituals songs. All the while, we are too sing and make melody with our hearts. Did He mention instruments as part of the worship? No, He gave specific instructions. If a song book, or a pitch pipe allows us to carry out God’s command to sing, without changing what He says, then we are being succesful. But if you throw instruments to worship, you are changing His very clear command. As soon as we begin to believe that we are in control of things, we have slipped into sin. God has given us His word, and no man will change it without a swift judgement on judgment day.
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I’m amazed at God’s grace. We come to Him as we are and He accepts us no matter what we’ve done or how much we have to learn. And, His grace covers us as we walk in the light. We are expected, however, to grow in faith by searching out his will as it is revealed in his word. It seems silly to believe that there is no wrong way to worship or that there is no biblically prescribed way to receive salvation. The meat of the word can be challenging as we grow because it forces us to realize that we’re not right about everything we’re doing and maybe even that many of our close friends are wrong. God bless everyone as they seek his truth.
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When I was a youngster I attended a denominational church that used musical instruments in their service until the old age of 18. At times they would even allow soloists to play. When they played I would hear comments from the senior members and others about how well the soloist played (junior high band instructor.. trumpet). They also went on and on about how they could listen to that all day. This was just short of saying they were tired of hearing the piano or organ that was usually played and liked the change. The point I am making here is the instrument became the focal point of the service not God.
Another instance later in my years was a good friend of my wife and myself. She was attending a country music worship service, and if that wasn’t enough she could even attend a rock music service. Now there are some that will contend the style of music is not the concern but the intent. This may be true if you enjoy allowing instruments into the service, because once that is done you must stop any judgments on that style. This opens the door to anything is acceptable. But the point is for her and I have no doubt for many others that it was not as much worship but entertainment. She told me she was tired of the same old boring music that was played when she attended with her parents, are you starting to see a pattern here? What these people are looking for is not as much closeness to God as they are looking for a free concert unless of course they contribute to the collection plate that day. It’s all about entertainment and what makes you feel good. Many say alcohol and drugs make you feel good but that doesn’t make it right. Now don’t get me wrong, there are some that have the discipline to follow the service and find the music a secondary plus. But if using musical instruments in the service will direct any individual to this idea of entertainment, it needs to be eliminated. Not only because it is wrong and their motives for attending is not aligned correctly but under the New Covenant with Christ it is not sanctioned. The patterns of the bible can tell us about how change over time affected the church. You see believers following the commands of God closely without compromise. Then as each generation goes by you see a tendency for the agents of change to occur. In all instances it was not for the better. God then had to discipline them for it. This is what is happening today when you see the wrong become right and the right become wrong in our society. Sadly it has made its’ way into the church and so many who are uncomfortable with confrontation ignore it. (homosexuals, adultery etc). We need to fight the good fight and stand up for what is right in all aspects of Gods word. If it is a stumbling block remove it.
-jerrod h
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On December 23rd, 2003 I lost my 9 year old daughter in an automobile accident, you know how many times since then i have focused on asking God to be present in my life and my comfort in finding somewhere solid to stand by making sure i fully understood whether or not i should have instruments involved in my worship? ZERO.
The legalistic debates that exist on music and several others issues have had little impact on my desire to worship God and be a witness to others. How can i reach out to others if i am not willing to go where they are spiritually? If i tell someone i know you need Christ in your life but i need you to make sure you first believe A thru Z or i cant do it is not going to get that person to even get a slight scent of what it means to follow Jesus. i have to build a relationship with them, live a life as close to the way Jesus led his life i can and show compassion. If you have heard or seen Jeff Walling and are offended, you should check out Rick Achley or Rob Bell.
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I'm sorry for your loss, I really am. Can't even begin to imagine how much that hurts. But it doesn't change the fact that we may not add to or take away from God's Word. Jesus cleared the temple because people were making merchandise of it. My post here was an honest and sincere response to Mr. Walling addressing a bunch of college kids. They deserved to hear the Truth of Jesus Christ, not some feel good, “you're just fine where you are, the church of Christ is filled with legalists” message as Walling gave. You people love to defend him but can he go into that forum without putting down the church, and show them how to become a Christian. Apparently not. The instrument has proven to be divisive over and over again. Quail Springs is another example of just how so. But the Leaders couldn't leave well enough alone. They seemed to have adopted the Walling attitude and rammed instruments into the morning worship. So that they could appeal to non-christians and carnal entertainment seekers, the Quail leaders made the calculated decisions to push the limit and it costs them many souls who left that assembly.
Now just how spiritual is that?
The loss of your daughter was tragic, but so is what is happening in the pulpits where entertainment and feel good story telling has replaced the Gospel and spirit and truth worship.
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Me and my wife have some experience with Jeff Walling. We were members of the Providence Road Church of Christ when we lived there. Jeff is a very good speaker and can keep your attention but what he says makes you scratch your head and think are we sitting in a Church of Christ Congregation? I remember many occassions when we had a well delivered sermon that was very interesting but not biblically based. We were beginning to wonder what kind of pseudo Church of Christ group were we with. Charlotte is not an area full of Church of Christ Congregations, there is more of a evangelical feel to the area. We knew that Providence Road was considered a liberal congregation but we didnt have alot of choice in Charlotte so we tried it out. The problem we faced was it was an incredibly nice place but very loosely based on biblical principles that we both had grown up from our Conservative congregations. We finally left the congregation when the issue of unsciptual divorces came up. Jeff and the elders didnt have issues marrying people who had unscriptual divorces. Its pretty clear in the bible about that but they based their views on some recent books about marriage and said they would rather err on the side of grace on that subject. Jeff would be a good denominational minister since just about every denomination is ok with him from what we gathered when we were there. We believe that he believes in what he does but we think that he is misguided and wouldnt want any relatives or anyone we know get tangled up in that web.
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Thanks for the comments from “Me and my wife…” I think your comment really gets to the point. The “err on the side of grace” attitude of Walling and Providence Road is the way of adding grace where God has not. They have no right to give grace where God clearly says the people are living in sin. Thanks very much for sharing here.
On Facebook? http://www.facebook.com/discipler
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Are we saying that “Gospel, spirit, true worship cannot be entertaining and feel good? Just a thought!
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Dear Preacher Man, What we are saying is that we FIRST follow God's Word. Instead, some are thinking FIRST how to entertain people; how to appeal to their senses; how to make them comfortable. But if we begin by following God's pattern of true and spiritual worship as exemplified in the New Testament, then sure, it is enjoyable and uplifting.
Do you authorize the use of musical instruments in worship? Because the Old Testament said to? Because people like them and find them so enjoyable? Friend, if so, you have opened a door which you cannot shut and one which lets in all sorts of “entertaining” ideas. If so, your church will not resemble the church of the New Testament.
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I too am concerned about the spiritual threats that my 5yr old daughter will face in her future
the biggest threat to her does not come from
a Charlotte minister, it comes from the world,
from our ungodly society. It is my deep conviction to not critisize other christians but
to focus on changing our society to a world that is primarliy focused on having a greater understanding of Jesus. (hosea chapter 4 – My people our destroyed by a lack of knowledge)telling the good news to the unreached and ungodly people of our world will be my first
priorty.
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Dear Anonymous,
We all have things to defend. I agree that we must have an understanding of Jesus. However, don't dismiss my concern that worship is either pleasing to God or it is not. Mr Walling doesn't seem to care if instruments are brought into the worship. He fellowships with those who use them. That to me is one way that the devil creeps into the church through the back door. Yeh, a Charlotte minister can be just the instrument for perverting the worship which God says MUST be in spirit and truth. Thanks for commenting.
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Dear DM,
Regarding Jeff – I have heard the man as a speaker since I was a teen, had dinner with him as an adult, respect him, but have been disappointed at the pendulum swing that is sometimes present in his dialogue as well. The slashing my legalistic brothers give him does not justify the taunting and belittling of their faith he gives in return. Both are wrong in their spirit, and both unfortunately have been done in a desire to be as pleasing to God as possible. The irony is how much the legalistic brothers and Jeff have in common when they do that – they are doing the same thing, but from different sides of the coin. They are defending their version of “spirit and truth,” which ends up being their hermeneutic.
Kind of like Christians forgetting the crusades when talking about the Twin Towers attack. Both events happened about 1000 years after the new movement began. Both were terribly terribly wrong, and do not represent flawed hermeneutics of their respective writings.
Not saying these hermeneutics are as flawed. But I came across this blog and was disappointed. It sounds like yet another legalistic blog determined to put people in their place and claim the nearest corner market on truth.
Your last post in particular seems to reinforce that you are the same as Jeff (in his less than stellar moments). You are more interested in being right than in being Christ to the world around you.
Which I willingly give you the benefit of the doubt, as I would assume that you have Bible studies with people leading them to Jesus right now, that you are an active servant in your church, that you make an effort to engage in your first ministry to your nuclear family far more passionately than your ministry on this blog…
…because that is what I have seen out of some of my legalistic brothers, and it is also what I have seen out of Jeff with his sons, particularly Riley.
So what am I suggesting exactly? That maybe God doesn't need your help defending His truth. That maybe in His infinite wisdom He would know that there would be people who would do church a little differently than you do, or than Jeff does, and that there would be people that would come to know God through your ministry outside this blog just like they do through Jeff's ministry outside inward-focused church conferences.
And maybe… just maybe… His grace really is sufficient for our weaknesses, especially in the fact that we the Bible through our hermeneutics…
Let's try to learn to love each other patiently as we seek truth. We (you, I and Jeff) are all on the same side, you know… 🙂
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Dear Anonymous,
Thanks for writing and defending what you think is the truth. But if you really believed what you say, you wouldn't be judging me as “slashing” and of being a “legalist”.
Walling has gone public and his error deserves a public response. Instead of telling everyone to get along, why don't you show me where I'm wrong. It's not me who is out embracing religious organizations who have departed from the truth.
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I have SIGNIFICANT experience worshipping with the Providence Road Church of Christ and I love and respect both the members of their congregation and Jeff Walling himself.
There are flaws in EVERY church. There are bound to be flaws because we are flawed people. I think one thing that MANY people commenting here have to be careful of is thinking that the Church of Christ is the only Church doing anything right or even the only church God accepts and will allow into his kingdom. That is thin ice to walk on. Jeff's message at this Christian University was absolutely true. I have spoken with Jeff personally and he very much stresses the importance of baptism but riddle me this: a man who is condemned to die is in prison and accepts Christ by some sort of ministry etc…he is not baptised before he is put to death. Does the Lord not extend him the same grace as he would to a baptized believer simply because he was not a free man to go and be baptized whenever he chose? Baptism is the will of God but it is NOT our saving grace.
What Jeff is trying to get at is that even though seeking the will of God in baptism and worship is important, your relationship with Christ and ultimate faith in him are what is most important.
As far as musical instruments go, I think Jesus sits in heaven absolutely disgusted at what a big deal we make of it. He sits there in all his glory demanding praise from us for his divine mercies and all we can do is argue with each other about how to do it. JUST DO IT! He is so deserving. If Christ really thinks that instruments are the spawn of satan like so many of you claim, then I'm sure he has added it to the list of sins he bore on the cross, the list of putrid and filthy sins that are all equal in his sight and all forgiven by his grace.
I find it interesting that Jeff Walling doesn't pay much mind to all the ridicule he gets. It's probably because he is too busy living a spirit-filled life and trying to reach people who don't know Christ or spur on the GENUINE faith of others,even people who play instruments in their church…GASP.
It is arguments like this and all this legalism that keep so many people from coming to Christ in the first place. The point is this: we are saved by FAITH alone, not by works. That means we are saved by believing in Christ..PERIOD. And we all need to spend a little more time in relationship with him instead of condemming fellow sinners. If we live only by rules, we are pharisees plain and simple. Even Jesus broke the Sabbath. He saw something else as more important than the rules and I find that being so worried about the WAY the church does things is ultimately pushing non-believers further and further away.
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.” Romans 3:28-30 (this could apply to the unbaptized but faithful or the intrumental worship leader who has faith. He saves all who believe)
Let us not so easily forget that we are all on the same team and we want others to join and that they should know that even though we should always seek God's will…we are saved firstly and ONLY by believing that Jesus Christ is the son of God who took the punishment for our sin and overcame it. Just food for thought. Have a blessed day.
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Dear Anonymous,
I appreciate your giving your opinion here but you are wrong. Your doctrine is not found in Scripture and your support of Jeff Walling makes me more certain that Mr. Walling is not advancing the Kingdom of Christ. I can imagine that Mr. Walling a likeable person and he is very zealous, but he is the one who invaded my space, not me his. He took a tone with my son at the Christian college of superiority and judgmentalism against churches of Christ. He told non-baptized that God accepted them (message to the student body in chapel included unbaptized) and he said he had grown beyond the limited view of his childhood teachers to have a better understanding of God's grace. I doubt very seriously that he does.
And we may not worship God however we please and expect that God's grace will make it acceptable. Jesus said we must worship Him in spirit and truth (Jn 4:23,24). Jesus said that vain worship is following the doctrines and precepts of men (Mt. 15:8,9). The Bible says not to add or take from it. Galatians and other inspired books tell the Christians that if they go back to the things of the Old Testament law, as you and others do to support the use of instruments, then you must keep the law in its entirety.
And you are misled to believe the doctrine of salvation by “faith alone”. Sir, saying that is akin to the devil telling Eve she won't die if she eats from the tree. It is a lie and perversion of Scripture to say that one is saved by “faith alone” and you show you true colors here. John didn't teach “faith alone” for he said for the people to “bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance.” Peter didn't teach “faith alone” because he said to those who were pierced by the truth to “repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Paul wasn't saved by “faith alone” because Ananias said to Paul three days after seeing Jesus “now why do you delay, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on His name” (Acts 22:16). And even Paul himself didn't teach faith alone because he said he was made an apostle to “bring about the obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26). He proceeded to show what this meant by telling the Christians that believing, confessing, doing right, and being baptized were essential to salvation (Rom. 10:9,10; 2:7; 6:3-5,16-18). There is much more to show on this topic but your own words show that you are not indoctrinated in the Bible because you speak words that are of men. Your own words contradict Scripture for “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas 2:24,17,26).
Good day.
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Dear Anonymous,
Sir, you contradict Scripture saying we are saved by “faith alone”. Is this what Jeff Walling teaches? Interesting. Read Jas 2:14-26 “…faith if it has no works is dead…But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?….You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected….You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone….so also faith without works is dead.”
And about worship. Yes, the cross is able to save us from ALL of our sins, all but the one we won't repent of. If you choose to continue to offer to God worship that cannot be supported by the “spirit and truth” words of Christ (Jn 4:23,24). Worship that is not supported by Scripture is vain (Mt. 15:8,9) and you can't pin vain worship on the cross and expect God to forgive it.
A person is saved by the grace of God. You will get no argument from me on this. All who are saved are saved by God's grace THROUGH faith (Eph. 2:8,9). The faith part is what separates those on the narrow path from those on the wide path. Faith is visible because it includes obedience. “If you love Me, you will do what I say.” Love and obedience go together and cannot be separated. You can't say that a person is saved by love or faith if the person hasn't obeyed Jesus by repenting, confessing, and being baptized. Though I know you are misled and a teacher of error, I wish you no bad feelings but only that you will see the Truth.
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Why do churches of christ not mandate that women wear head coverings in church as explicitly outlined in 1 Cor 11:2-16, yet focus so much on instrumental music which is not so explicitly addressed in scripture?
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I have answered this question about scarves. Do a search.
Now since you think that head scarves are explicitly commanded in the Scriptures for the church today, please tell me which church you attend and does it follow this explicit command? If you can't do this and don't follow something you say is so clear, then you are a sinner, knowingly disobeying God. However, I don't think you believe your own words and so you choose to employ a weak and deceptive argument in order to justify another trespass — that of adding to God's Word. Because while the New Testament does tell prophetesses to wear headscarves, it does not tell the church to play instruments. Does your wife, if you have one, wear a head covering?
Sir, no disrespect is intended, but you have no justification for adding to God's Word by pointing to a supposed trespass against it on another point. You should deal with each matter on its own merits. If you believe that we are taking away from God's Word, then prove it from Paul's writings. And if you want to add your beloved instruments, then prove that they should be used. Adding to the worship of God is an obvious trespass against God.
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Wow…I just happened upon this page. You need to spend more time reading scripture as opposed to regurgitating Church of Christ doctrine. I grew up in the church of Christ and am familiar with their attention to the outward things (instruments, communion, baptism, titles, who can serve in what capacity) but yet they (and the person who wrote this article) are totally unfamiliar with the concepts of Christianity and how Jesus ministered. The church of Christ is filled with wonderful people-but their emphisis on THEIR INTERPRETATION of the bible is very legalistic and enslaves people in “doing” what they think “good Christians should do” as opposed to being like Christ, who would (quite frankly) NEVER have written a post like this. Frankly, he would not care. Jeff Walling now has much more of my respect because of what you have written! He used to come to our church 30 years ago when I was 8 and I adored him even then. So glad to see that he realizes that the denomination of the church of Christ is NOT above anyone else and that God is (gasp!) working in hundreds of thousands of churches across the nation that do not have “church of Christ” on their sign. Really, you need to get a grip.
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Dear Anonymous, Your definition of “legalism” is the same as the definition used by our Baptist and Lutheran friends. You don't really know what is “legalism”. Following the Bible is following the commandments of God, which we are to do since we love Him (Jn 14:15).
In fact it is the self-willed who give approval to worship that can't be substantiated. The Bible says to sing, nothing more.
Now let's see if you become the “legalist” by trying to prove with Scripture that you can add instruments to worship! It is a “legalistic” approach to turn to the Old Law for justification. It is a “legalistic” approach to do what lawyers do, justifying the musical instruments “because it doesn't say you can't.”
The truth is you are rebellious. Your worship a pursuit of what pleases you, what tickles your ear. And you defend Jeff Walling when it is he who is the antagonist. He mocks the churches when he stands before the college students, depicting himself as so wise and elevated above those he grew up among.
I'm on firm ground to say that we must sing and if we sing, we can be unified. It is your type who with self-righteousness, will-worship who divided and continue to divide. Shame on you. Let this be seen as a loving rebuke to you.
Sincerely, Dan Mayfield
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I have grown up in a Christian church where every Sunday instruments are used I realize that you have issues with that and that there is a lot of biblical debate behind all of these issues but can you rightly tell me that I'm going to hell because I use instruments in worshiping my Savior. I am currently studying to be an agricultural missionary so that I can go overseas and feed starving people both physically and spiritually I made the decision to go into missions after spending a week at a conference where instruments were used and Jeff Walling spoke while he may ruffle your feathers he is changing hearts for the Kingdom everyday if we would all work together instead of fighting about this think of the things we could do for the Kingdom if this one man bridging the gap can be a part of thousands of students seeing that Jesus died for their sins just imagine what could happen if we all worked together a string by itself will break easily but a cord of separate strands who can worship how they please wont be easily broken and maybe just maybe can be used to rescue the millions of people falling into the eternal pit of hell
Im not saying either side is right I honestly think that instruments if not used properly can take away from worship and can lead people to glorify the person playing instead of God but I also know from the perspective of the youth that if the church you bring non believing kids into is singing out of old dusty hymnals you are going to lose these kids at the door Im not saying the hymns are bad personally I would rather hear a hymn sometimes than hear yet another contemporary Christian song but these kids who have spent their entire lives thus far listening to instrumental music arent going to be able to experience the heart of worship if they are too busy trying to figure out whats going on with the pitch pipe and music notes
I know that there are a lot of kids who grow up like me and that can appreciate a hymn and could easily worship without instruments but how can you knowingly keep a person from experiencing the peace that comes through true unashamed worship because the Bible doesn't explicitly tell you that its ok to use a guitar I challenge you to go and listen to those 3000 kids that Jeff talked about in that article and still say that he is a terrible person for trying to bring more people to Christ and not condemning the use of instruments
God Bless
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Dear Daughter of the King,
What should be the punishment for embracing something that has divided for centuries? We speak where the Bible speaks and the Bible says to sing: so we sing. But it is presumptuous to say God doesn't care about musical instruments in the New Testament worship. Look at your history. There's no history of the church and only in the 7th century did the Catholics introduce them. Your practice is to follow the Catholics. Sincerely, Dan
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I grew up in the Churches of Christ. I was ever so convicted of my endorsement that we had it all as Jesus mission – inseparable from our practices. But isn't there room for grace peace and forgiveness? As a song leader, I followed the strict guidance that my father raised me to lead the worship. Our family served and toiled – shared joys and tears with our brothers and sisters. We were four generations of God fearing believers in mercy of The Lord's extended salvation. In 2012 I came to confess my sin in marital unfaithfulness. This congregation of the Church of Christ in Wichita could not accept my confession, could not pray for me, and could not lovingly move to advance my walk in repentance. I approached several of my past congregations for the same, though several unnamed individuals extended love to me and continue so to this day. Given all the energy that this blog devotes to judging others based upon practices solely focused by the Churches of Christ, shouldn't at a minimum be a reflection of Christ that it practices that we bring our brokeness, our deep and exposed sin into the arms of the saints? I will name them Greenwich Road – Eastpoint – Northside Wichita – Memorial Road – Quail Springs – Edmond. Oklahoma City –
– At least you or we were consistent in our piety. Christ came to seek and save the lost.
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